Former chairman of the defunct Transition Implementation Committee, TIC during the late Gen. Sani Abacha administration, Justice Mamman Nasir has asked members of the Northern Elders Forum not to divide Nigeria by emphasizing positions that tended to make northerners as the only people in Nigeria. Nasir,
an octogenarian and former Court of Appeal president also pleaded with members of the Independent People of Biafra, IPOB and MASSOB to jettison the idea of seceding from Nigeria, urging them to think of the interest of the nation, their children and grandchildren.
According to him, Nigerians should forget about the Northern Elders Forum and be wary of the kind of personalities they chose as leaders, warning that unless the views expressed by such leaders were supported by very many of the responsible citizens, it should not be taken seriously. Speaking in an interview with Sunday Sun, Nasir blamed Nigeria’s woes on lack of good leadership and spoke of his frustrations during the Abacha regime, disclosing that those who killed Abacha were those who also killed Chief Moshood Abiola, the acclaimed winner of the June 12, 1993 presidential election.
According to him, Nigerians should forget about the Northern Elders Forum and be wary of the kind of personalities they chose as leaders, warning that unless the views expressed by such leaders were supported by very many of the responsible citizens, it should not be taken seriously. Speaking in an interview with Sunday Sun, Nasir blamed Nigeria’s woes on lack of good leadership and spoke of his frustrations during the Abacha regime, disclosing that those who killed Abacha were those who also killed Chief Moshood Abiola, the acclaimed winner of the June 12, 1993 presidential election.
As the President of the Court of Appeal whose tenure lasted for a long time, I think it is pertinent to…
(Cuts in) We started the court in 1975 and Justice Dan Ibekwe died in 1978 and I took over until 1992. Then I retired at an early age, so to speak and I went back to the village. That’s where I am now.
(Cuts in) We started the court in 1975 and Justice Dan Ibekwe died in 1978 and I took over until 1992. Then I retired at an early age, so to speak and I went back to the village. That’s where I am now.
In what state did you leave the judiciary?
At that time as far as our courts were concerned, we were really independent. I am not saying we were beyond anybody approaching us, but I doubt if anybody ever succeeded in destroying our oneness. Up till the time I left, we were very proud of ourselves. People tried; one or two senior people tried but failed and some of them later became my best friends. Even though they lost their cases, they became my friends later. They used to come to this very house for consultations even when I was no longer in the judiciary. They came for consultations in Law, politics and so on. So as far as I am concerned, I did not leave any enemy because he lost a case, two cases I knew about. They were not able to convince anybody. They tried in court and failed. That was the end of those cases. But the main difference is that there were some elements of the Federal Government that assisted even the judiciary. If you have a strong government, every arm would be stronger automatically. If you fail at the top, gradually it would affect all other arms of government. You can see now when we are talking of corruption, it is so far still within the very arms that formed the government. That corruption is going round… I am not talking of individual business people. We are talking of people in government, in one of the arms of government, National Assembly, the executive and judiciary; only those three are in issue now and that was the effect in my view, of a sort of weak management at the top.
You talked about the independence of the judiciary at that time
At the time we were in the judiciary, anybody who comes and attempts to bribe the judiciary, I believe he would fail. It is not only me. Any member of the court at that time, he would fail because if anything happened to somebody else, he would tell me. We were living really as brothers and we never at the time had disagreements. So even with cases, we were all aware of cases going on. So if you disappeared for one minute, somebody else can step in. That was really a sort of brotherhood.
At that time as far as our courts were concerned, we were really independent. I am not saying we were beyond anybody approaching us, but I doubt if anybody ever succeeded in destroying our oneness. Up till the time I left, we were very proud of ourselves. People tried; one or two senior people tried but failed and some of them later became my best friends. Even though they lost their cases, they became my friends later. They used to come to this very house for consultations even when I was no longer in the judiciary. They came for consultations in Law, politics and so on. So as far as I am concerned, I did not leave any enemy because he lost a case, two cases I knew about. They were not able to convince anybody. They tried in court and failed. That was the end of those cases. But the main difference is that there were some elements of the Federal Government that assisted even the judiciary. If you have a strong government, every arm would be stronger automatically. If you fail at the top, gradually it would affect all other arms of government. You can see now when we are talking of corruption, it is so far still within the very arms that formed the government. That corruption is going round… I am not talking of individual business people. We are talking of people in government, in one of the arms of government, National Assembly, the executive and judiciary; only those three are in issue now and that was the effect in my view, of a sort of weak management at the top.
You talked about the independence of the judiciary at that time
At the time we were in the judiciary, anybody who comes and attempts to bribe the judiciary, I believe he would fail. It is not only me. Any member of the court at that time, he would fail because if anything happened to somebody else, he would tell me. We were living really as brothers and we never at the time had disagreements. So even with cases, we were all aware of cases going on. So if you disappeared for one minute, somebody else can step in. That was really a sort of brotherhood.
So how did you feel when you heard that Supreme Court Judges were arrested for corruption?
I am a human being. I have a religion. So anything is possible. I don’t see them really different from other Nigerians. It was not encouraging. It was not nice, but it is not impossible. And since it is part of human society, anything can happen anywhere. But it is a pity that it has even got to the top because that is the worst part of it. But I think we have not learnt lessons. I was telling somebody today that if we can get the press and the judiciary to team up, there can be a lot of difference in the quality and even in the administration of justice, in the sense that both the press and the judiciary will be honest. And if we do our best, everybody will listen. The other two arms will think the press is supporting the judiciary. So they may be careful. But even though I am unhappy, I am thinking of what do you do for tomorrow. This has happened. We cannot delete it from our history. It has happened. It was not impossible. But what the judiciary should do in my view is to think more of how do we build the future including protective decisions so that we train our people. I have always taken more interest in continuing education in the judiciary. In fact, I was a party to the establishment of the institute we have now in Lagos where we train judges. So I believe we can improve our training and that will include moral education. It is not good enough that you know law, but that you are also honest. Two days ago, there was a call to the bar. There were few cases of doubtful cases. If you have clean family, your son can go anywhere, he would still be clean.
I am a human being. I have a religion. So anything is possible. I don’t see them really different from other Nigerians. It was not encouraging. It was not nice, but it is not impossible. And since it is part of human society, anything can happen anywhere. But it is a pity that it has even got to the top because that is the worst part of it. But I think we have not learnt lessons. I was telling somebody today that if we can get the press and the judiciary to team up, there can be a lot of difference in the quality and even in the administration of justice, in the sense that both the press and the judiciary will be honest. And if we do our best, everybody will listen. The other two arms will think the press is supporting the judiciary. So they may be careful. But even though I am unhappy, I am thinking of what do you do for tomorrow. This has happened. We cannot delete it from our history. It has happened. It was not impossible. But what the judiciary should do in my view is to think more of how do we build the future including protective decisions so that we train our people. I have always taken more interest in continuing education in the judiciary. In fact, I was a party to the establishment of the institute we have now in Lagos where we train judges. So I believe we can improve our training and that will include moral education. It is not good enough that you know law, but that you are also honest. Two days ago, there was a call to the bar. There were few cases of doubtful cases. If you have clean family, your son can go anywhere, he would still be clean.
I need your assessment of the judiciary. Do you think the judiciary has fared well enough?
In my view it has done better than the other two arms. Sit and analyze how much money has been wasted through corruption in the other two arms in comparison to the judiciary. After all, who brought the money to the judiciary? But we need not waste time on that. We need to sit and tell the three arms of government that we are building a nation and that we need national honesty. This national honesty can make all the difference in any department.
There are many people advocating for changes in the NJC. They want the powers of appointment conferred on the CJN to appoint judges into the body to be removed. They also want the power to appoint the CJN removed from the president. What do you think?
You see, take a very democratic country with a lot of complications like India. If you take it, you will see that they are still practicing, in many respects, what looks more like the English practice, not America. In the appointment of Judges, the president has powers to appoint some of them in consultation…there were more consultations. Even the president could appoint whoever he wants and there are issues whether he must consult the Chief Justice. If there are objections from a particular group, that person must be dropped. If you take the Indian system, if there are delays in some cases, they used to refuse those ones. If you have so many cases, the Chief Justice will be in a position to appoint temporary Justices in consultation with the president, not him alone so that they can dispose of all pending cases. And the real issue honestly is leadership. Are we prepared to be honest? It’s no use accusing a particular individual in a three arms government. Indeed, Federal Government means involving the three arms. Each one is just a part of the government. So, if we can get good leadership, it would make all the difference. After all, we have been teasing our political leaders. We are saying, for example Dr. Okpara had to go back to Ireland to clean his degree to come back and practice Medicine. But he did not amass wealth. Now, take the Premier of Northern Nigeria, Sardauna of Sokoto. Show me his house here. Show me the one he built by stealing. When that tall building was being built, I used to go with him. People thought it was his house. But it was government. Every other day, he would go and inspect the building. Now we have question of leadership and this leadership applies to all.
In my view it has done better than the other two arms. Sit and analyze how much money has been wasted through corruption in the other two arms in comparison to the judiciary. After all, who brought the money to the judiciary? But we need not waste time on that. We need to sit and tell the three arms of government that we are building a nation and that we need national honesty. This national honesty can make all the difference in any department.
There are many people advocating for changes in the NJC. They want the powers of appointment conferred on the CJN to appoint judges into the body to be removed. They also want the power to appoint the CJN removed from the president. What do you think?
You see, take a very democratic country with a lot of complications like India. If you take it, you will see that they are still practicing, in many respects, what looks more like the English practice, not America. In the appointment of Judges, the president has powers to appoint some of them in consultation…there were more consultations. Even the president could appoint whoever he wants and there are issues whether he must consult the Chief Justice. If there are objections from a particular group, that person must be dropped. If you take the Indian system, if there are delays in some cases, they used to refuse those ones. If you have so many cases, the Chief Justice will be in a position to appoint temporary Justices in consultation with the president, not him alone so that they can dispose of all pending cases. And the real issue honestly is leadership. Are we prepared to be honest? It’s no use accusing a particular individual in a three arms government. Indeed, Federal Government means involving the three arms. Each one is just a part of the government. So, if we can get good leadership, it would make all the difference. After all, we have been teasing our political leaders. We are saying, for example Dr. Okpara had to go back to Ireland to clean his degree to come back and practice Medicine. But he did not amass wealth. Now, take the Premier of Northern Nigeria, Sardauna of Sokoto. Show me his house here. Show me the one he built by stealing. When that tall building was being built, I used to go with him. People thought it was his house. But it was government. Every other day, he would go and inspect the building. Now we have question of leadership and this leadership applies to all.
As the Chairman of the Transition Implementation Committee, TIC under the Late Gen. Sani Abacha administration, what were your frustrations?
You see, even at state level here, during Abba Kyari’s regime, I was the chairman of a committee which supervised the implementation of all the works which government gave. Membership included very senior people. So, we will go round. When it came to his administration, he wanted me to implement everything that was agreed to properly. So that implementation committee was important. In fact, one day I was on tour in another state, somebody came claiming to have come from Abuja. He told the local election officer what he should do. It so happened that I was there. I asked him: who is that man? He said he is from headquarters. I said okay tell him I am not going to do it because I know he must be telling a lie. He said he wanted to discuss with me. I told him I am busy now I can’t discuss with you. Then the person who ought to have it came and complained to me that they want to do this and that. I said no. Go and meet him. Tell him the whole truth, you will get good decision. If you start lying, I am not sure you will win. Tell him the whole truth. He did. He went and he wanted a particular area to be deleted so that he would lose. So I said forget it. Our main problem is honesty. Take the present situation as a very important stepping stone for building a better future. What can we do? How do we do it? Where do we start from? What do we aim at? If you read English history, England, London in particular became the most important business centre in the world. Part of the reason was the honesty of their judiciary including arbitration. So German and French were usually at loggerheads and then they will say go to London and have arbitration agreement. So when they go, London will accept it. That quality of being fair and honest made them to succeed for many businesses with some links with London just because they were sure to get good judgement and arbitration. I don’t know what they are doing now.
You see, even at state level here, during Abba Kyari’s regime, I was the chairman of a committee which supervised the implementation of all the works which government gave. Membership included very senior people. So, we will go round. When it came to his administration, he wanted me to implement everything that was agreed to properly. So that implementation committee was important. In fact, one day I was on tour in another state, somebody came claiming to have come from Abuja. He told the local election officer what he should do. It so happened that I was there. I asked him: who is that man? He said he is from headquarters. I said okay tell him I am not going to do it because I know he must be telling a lie. He said he wanted to discuss with me. I told him I am busy now I can’t discuss with you. Then the person who ought to have it came and complained to me that they want to do this and that. I said no. Go and meet him. Tell him the whole truth, you will get good decision. If you start lying, I am not sure you will win. Tell him the whole truth. He did. He went and he wanted a particular area to be deleted so that he would lose. So I said forget it. Our main problem is honesty. Take the present situation as a very important stepping stone for building a better future. What can we do? How do we do it? Where do we start from? What do we aim at? If you read English history, England, London in particular became the most important business centre in the world. Part of the reason was the honesty of their judiciary including arbitration. So German and French were usually at loggerheads and then they will say go to London and have arbitration agreement. So when they go, London will accept it. That quality of being fair and honest made them to succeed for many businesses with some links with London just because they were sure to get good judgement and arbitration. I don’t know what they are doing now.
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